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arising for me from our interactions. For one thing, its nice to know that there are folks out there sharing my interests and coming up with some answers to our pressing dilemmas. Carolyn Baker is one of the few thinkers writing today who clearly sees civilization for what it is, and I appreciate that about her. Derrick Jensen is of course another such. I think what most delights me about Carolyn Baker is that on the outside she looks like your typical mid-western farm wife, but instead she is a woman of wide reading and deep thought. The human need for acceptance and group status can also be our Achilles heel, as Robinson Jefferson so aptly hints. Every day of these same 6 billion years, the sun has been shining, sending its life-giving warmth to Earth. After photosynthesis developed, that warmth was turned into the living biomass of the plant kingdom, which in turn fed the animal kingdom. These plants and animals eventually died, as did their successors. The accrued biomass was acted upon by the dynamic processes of crustal upthrust and weathering, and eventually found its way into underground chambers where, under heat and pressure, it transformed into concentrated forms of fossil energy–stored sunlight. Instead of trusting to the Earth to provide for them, and feeling gratitude for what was freely offered, they decided to take things into their own handsâ”to become as gods themselves. Thatâs how it began, as best I can piece it together, and ten thousand years later you have the Earth in the crisis we find it in today. The way I see it, it was this break with Nature–this fiction that we are somehow separate from Nature, and that Nature is just a pile of resources put here exclusively for human useâ”that started us down this path or eight-lane superhighway we find ourselves on today. That is why, for me, reducing our numbers only deals with half the issue. The other half is that we are in wrong relationship to Nature , and until we get that relationship right, we are going to continue to make a mess of this living world. Itâs two problems, not just one, and to solve it we have to see it as two. I recall Bucky Fuller saying he saw the future as going from YOU OR ME to YOU AND ME. Even if a bit utopian that does seem a worthy goal. But that is a long way off. Just think of the population level necessary to even imagine such a condition. Let me say one more thing. Small groups can be the crucible in which what is needed to create a new human world can be forged. They represent a creative challenge essential to discoveringcreating the kind of people who can live together in peace and harmony, and realize the maximum potential of all of us. Rob M — You said, âœas mike k points out, the line between a Sufi teacher and Nazism is mighty thin.â Actually I did not mean to convey that idea. The line between Sufism and Nazism is very clear and obvious to all but the most unconscious and deluded. It is just that some of the methods of each of those schools of thought bear superficial resemblance.